A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

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Anders Olsson
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by Anders Olsson »

I have been printing some rather old XT-CF20 with different ruby nozzles and a hardened E3D-nozzle just to test the differences.
2017-01-19-0381.jpg
The UM2Go works well with the heated bed but I ended up with some rather strange feeding issues after short retractions.
2017-01-18-0359.jpg
(Left is Ruby, right is E3D hardened)
At first I thought it was because of the filament, but when feeding and retracting manually it works perfectly fine, no signs of extra friction.
So I am suspecting the bowden tube, it was beaten up quite badly when my printer was on loan and they did not put the print head in the correct position when packing the printer into the transportation box.
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LePaul
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by LePaul »

On the right model, what's going on between the leg/body? Is that where your retracting went badly?
Anders Olsson
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by Anders Olsson »

Yes, the same under extrusion issue is present on both of them, but not very consistent. It always showed up at the supports for the robot hands, but sometime it was really bad and sometimes almost not visible even though I did not change anything in between the prints.

The problem appears only on retractions with very little printing in between and only shows up after several layers with those retractions (?)
I suspect something bowden-related since the bowden tube had lots of friction and has a very sharp bend on the UM2Go, combined with the rather weak UM2 feeder.
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martin-bienz
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by martin-bienz »

Anders Olsson wrote:Yes, the same under extrusion issue is present on both of them, but not very consistent. It always showed up at the supports for the robot hands, but sometime it was really bad and sometimes almost not visible even though I did not change anything in between the prints.

The problem appears only on retractions with very little printing in between and only shows up after several layers with those retractions (?)
I suspect something bowden-related since the bowden tube had lots of friction and has a very sharp bend on the UM2Go, combined with the rather weak UM2 feeder.
Hey Anders
Not sure if this relates, but, on my UMO I have had the same thing, when heat creeps (higher temperatures) up after a few layers and on heavy retractions, the filament gets soft(isch) also a bit higher up and squeezes itself between every small crack / gap you might have. Somewhere in between the hot zone and the bowden. Might be your problem as well? This does not happen if the bowden is tight (but not 2 tight) and the channel from the teflon downwards is really in good condition. So... also reducing retraction distance helps (temp fix).
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by Anders Olsson »

Yeah, I have been suspecting the teflon spacer, even though the TFM is supposed to last very long.
I might take it apart tomorrow and replace it just to make sure everything is ok.
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martin-bienz
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by martin-bienz »

...also just re-assembling it properly might do the trick, if the bowden was pulled upon. Might work if the components look ok. I guess ... but I have no doubt you will get it fixed anyway :) .
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nilrog
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by nilrog »

The postman delivered a package today...with some filament and a small box :)
IMG_0541.JPG
IMG_0542.JPG
Nice work Anders! 8-)

Now I just need to switch to GT2 belts and the UM2 printhead...and wait for 3D-Verkstan to deliver the CF20 roll that I didn't get...before I can put it to use :)
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by Neotko »

martin-bienz wrote:
Anders Olsson wrote:Yes, the same under extrusion issue is present on both of them, but not very consistent. It always showed up at the supports for the robot hands, but sometime it was really bad and sometimes almost not visible even though I did not change anything in between the prints.

The problem appears only on retractions with very little printing in between and only shows up after several layers with those retractions (?)
I suspect something bowden-related since the bowden tube had lots of friction and has a very sharp bend on the UM2Go, combined with the rather weak UM2 feeder.
Hey Anders
Not sure if this relates, but, on my UMO I have had the same thing, when heat creeps (higher temperatures) up after a few layers and on heavy retractions, the filament gets soft(isch) also a bit higher up and squeezes itself between every small crack / gap you might have. Somewhere in between the hot zone and the bowden. Might be your problem as well? This does not happen if the bowden is tight (but not 2 tight) and the channel from the teflon downwards is really in good condition. So... also reducing retraction distance helps (temp fix).
IMO on my way too many ours looking at the printer, that happens when the retraction distance is too big for small details, making irregularities on the real material extruded. That along many more stuff is why it took me so long to master very small text prints. Also forget about um2 knurled bolt, is just not up to the task of precision filament movements. Get a bondtech or at least an mk7/mk8. When doing small areas the inly way to really control the filament is by heavy retractions. And even so unless you have a DDrive 2.85mm is worse on that area vs 1.75 (less material vs gravity + less temperature needed = less drip + better control of each extrusion).
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by Anders Olsson »

nilrog wrote: Nice work Anders! 8-)
That box, and all manufacturing, marketing and sales stuff is entirely done by 3DVerkstan, so I can not claim any credits for that :-)
Also, the beta testers here should get credits for testing the concept, without people on this forum it would have been very difficult.

I did not really expect people only doing 3DPrinting for a hobby buying the ruby nozzle by the way, though it would gain most interest among professional users and businesses. Looking forward to a review! :-)
Neotko wrote:IMO on my way too many ours looking at the printer, that happens when the retraction distance is too big for small details, making irregularities on the real material extruded. That along many more stuff is why it took me so long to master very small text prints. Also forget about um2 knurled bolt, is just not up to the task of precision filament movements. Get a bondtech or at least an mk7/mk8. When doing small areas the inly way to really control the filament is by heavy retractions. And even so unless you have a DDrive 2.85mm is worse on that area vs 1.75 (less material vs gravity + less temperature needed = less drip + better control of each extrusion).
The strange thing is that the same spool of XT-CF20 printed fine on the UM3 using the same hardened nozzle, even all those small features came out nicely:
2017-01-01-0086.jpg
(Yes, the varying speed in new Cura creates a mess with materials like this, the infill just destroys itself)

So either the feeder is just on the limit on the UM2Go, or something part of the bowden/hotend is not perfectly healthy.
I thought my UM2Go was fully upgraded with dual hotends and heated bed by the way, but maybe it requires another feeder before it is fully equipped :-)
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Neotko
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by Neotko »

UM3 is a world apart. The only way to test it vs is removing the acceleration/yerk control implemented on Cura that UM uses to compensate for a heavier and less stable head. For example the ringing with the same gcode on a umo+2 vs the um3 is just brutal, the um3 without the accel/yerk tricks creates waves that you can actually fell by hand. Ofc that's why they use this tricks. And to compensate for the really really slow speed, they push fast speeds on infill and less visible areas. Overall, not good for precision but works since you get a visible ok print.
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LePaul
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by LePaul »

Wow, why all that debris on the build plate?
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nilrog
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by nilrog »

Anders Olsson wrote:That box, and all manufacturing, marketing and sales stuff is entirely done by 3DVerkstan, so I can not claim any credits for that :-)
I figured so...but the box would not exist if it wasn't for you, and your testers :)
Anders Olsson wrote:I did not really expect people only doing 3DPrinting for a hobby buying the ruby nozzle by the way, though it would gain most interest among professional users and businesses. Looking forward to a review! :-)
While I might not actually have that much use for it...knowing that I have a nozzle that can take any (abrasive) material...feels good. And the fact that it also seems to improve results is a nice bonus.

And I like to support good projects...and especially Swedish ones :-)
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Izzy
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by Izzy »

At last we managed to finish editing the video and post it up on Facebook and YouTube :-P .
The video is Sue's Journey into 3Dprinting, and using the Wanhao Duplicator i3 Plus which was won in a competition from Filaments.Directory, she is Vloging her journey as a complete beginner. if you have some time to spare, the YouTube link below is Sue (who was not done anything like this before) unboxing, assembling and setting it up, there are a couple of quick cameos from 2 of our cats too, see if you can spot where Tiggy starts reaching up my leg :lol: .
So far she is enjoying the journey and preparing for episode 2
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LePaul
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by LePaul »

I LOVED watching this! And as a couple, it looks like (1) You are still married and (2) Had FUN!

What's Sue going to print next?
Anders Olsson
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Re: A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

Post by Anders Olsson »

LePaul wrote:Wow, why all that debris on the build plate?
Just as Neotko says, Ultimaker did all sorts of tricks to compensate for the more heavy print head on the UM3.
Without these tricks the UM3 would have been much slower than the UM2, or would have given worse printing quality at the same speed.

One way they did this is to print the walls slower and the infill faster than before.
This looks rather sophisticated when watching the printer and mostly works as intended, meaning that you get really good quality with the UM3 while it is not much slower than the UM2 using default settings.
cura_infill_speed.jpg
However, since it is a bowden machine, there is some delay in the feeding when suddenly changing speed, which produces underextrusion in the first part of the infill.
For "normal" filaments, this is generally acceptable and does not cause any quality issues on the finished object.

Materials like XT-CF20 though (which you should not print on a stock the UM3 since it eats nozzles), does not like high speeds or sudden speed changes.
When I printed the Millenium Falcon with default settings (except the temperature increased to 250C) the result was that then infill tended to destroy itself:
2017-01-01-0101.jpg
It would be nice with a "constant speed" setting in Cura for these materials, since it is first of all not obvious that new Cura does this on all printers, and second of all a bit inconvenient to show and adjust all those settings.
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