A Tea between friends :-) How was Your Day

[Neotko]

You know what... I think that if they convinced @nallath that the patent thing is just fine, then it should be fine. I don't like Cura, but I do know for the 5mins I meet him that he's a way too brilliant guy to be ignored.

So, if in 19 years UM sues everyone and their mama, I blame Nallath XDDD

Now please, allow me to update UM3 firmwares or I'll have to just make a ssh batch system to edit them... Gudo and I might want to make a ZGE version for UM3 someday and using ssh batch is far less reliable unless I make a python on something to read the version, check the file, search the parts and replace them...

By the way, and going WAY offtopic... Don't you guys are more worried than by ssh root you can actually destroy more than by just a firmware update from a github? I mean... Is really easy. But ofc... the system can be net closed making the usb the only weak spot...ok I get it. Anyhow, good night!

[nilrog]

The world is (sadly) moving towards signed/closed software even though in other respects it becomes more open...mostly with the intention that you should not be able to tamper with it. Sometimes it's "the easy way" to say that you are "protecting" the customer. I don't know exactly how the UM3 works...and i'm not about to find out either ...but I can see where they are coming from...the UM3 seems to be all about ease-of-use-and-quality-out-of-the-box...which is not at all bad

But distributing it's firmware securely and allowing people to install custom firmware are not mutually exclusive. It's a choice...just like UM apparently allows you to become root. That said...I hope that by the time the "quarantine" is over, they will allow you to install custom firmware. There will always be people like us who wants to tinker with their stuff...because...no one has created the "perfect machine"...and never will

[Blizz]

Is the bed leveling they use so new and unseen? Didn't know that.

Apparently (if you can believe Prusa) it's almost undoable with a glas plate on the bed (which is why they use those annoying PEI sheets instead).
So I assume that the fact that UM can still calibrate whilst using glass is "patentable".
Would've preferred a glass bed on the Prusa as well... especially when you know how much work (and money) it takes to replace the sheet.

[nallath]

What sd card?? Mine is empty

Also that means exactly what I said. There can't be tinkergnome firmwares for um3.

There is a micro SD with the OS on it. It is possible for a tinkergnome firmware to be there.

Yes, you need linux knowledge. But it provides an amazing platform to develop on.

I will ask the firmware guys if an "easy" firmware option is on the roadmap.

[Neotko]

What sd card?? Mine is empty

Also that means exactly what I said. There can't be tinkergnome firmwares for um3.

There is a micro SD with the OS on it. It is possible for a tinkergnome firmware to be there.

Yes, you need linux knowledge. But it provides an amazing platform to develop on.

I will ask the firmware guys if an "easy" firmware option is on the roadmap.

My a20board sd slot is empty since the day it arrived. Know that because I bricked the net wifi load touching the stuff I shouldn't, and got to buy a a20 serial cable to ssh by usb/serial to the board to fix my mistake.

Thanks btw!

[jonnybischof]

Ok K.I.S.S. (Keep it Simple Stupid)
...

Well, adding more material to the build plate would also require you to reinforce the Z-stage and use high quality linear components. In general, you do want to keep the build platform as lightweight as possible. My take on the matter is to use a 2mm steel sheet with some cutouts to reduce weight. It's still heavier than anything made from aluminum, but it is 100% solid, doesn't shift, doesn't warp noticeably (compared to aluminum or wood) and it's not even more expensive than aluminum.

Personally, I would never use an active, or even assisted levelling technique at all. It is just far too much hassle. Make a rigid frame and z-stage and a flat bed, and you won't have to level more than once at all. And if that one time takes 10 minutes, who cares?

[Izzy]

Cheers Jonny,
The Z stage is the weak point on the bed levelling, its make up means that it is acting as a cantilever and so on large heavy builds there will be a difference between the front and the back heights, a small one but it would be there.

The majority of the time we will not be building items weighing 1kg, but the Ultimakers cantilever build plate will be effected compaired to machines where the builtplate is set on the 'Y' rails.
But, in both instances the adjustable buildplate is riding upon springs above the build platform. As the Ultimaker Z stage moves and is cantilever based, a balance between stiffness and mass is required, as Jonny suggests the plate could be cutout to reduce mass, but this could also introduce stress and result in slight bending, the platform could also be composite, but these would increase costs.
So, in theory a 3 point adjustment setup should allow for a level bed, but in practice it indicates that only these 3 points are level, if the glass plate is not itself flat, and if you check out the spec http://sec.uchicago.edu/glass/borofloat_33_e.pdf the tolerance for 3.8mm glass plate is +-0.2mm, then in practice we could experience a difference of 0.4mm in the flatness of the glass plate (standard production process) other glass manufacturers will also quote the same approximate tolerances.

We are not printing on a precision ground machine bed, how flat and level are the various glues, hairspray, tapes etc.. that we use to adhere to? If you want to improve this print using a raft.
I can't see the benifit of these bed levelling sensors, take your time in setting the bed level, print some tests disks, measure, adjust, retest, repeat, once set you are good to go. If you do need to relieved your bed if you change a nozzle you should only need to adjust the general height to the 1st point, and this has worked for me for general testing.

[LePaul]

Is the bed leveling they use so new and unseen? Didn't know that.

Apparently (if you can believe Prusa) it's almost undoable with a glas plate on the bed (which is why they use those annoying PEI sheets instead).
So I assume that the fact that UM can still calibrate whilst using glass is "patentable".
Would've preferred a glass bed on the Prusa as well... especially when you know how much work (and money) it takes to replace the sheet.

Blizz, did you see Tom's latest video on all those auto-leveling probes? I posted about it here

[Titus]

I've typed a very long and maybe a bit frustrated reply to his blog. He has a bit of a naive look on patents & IP.

if you did, it is gone now. Hope you have it on cache!

Ok, I guess I know what happened, some wrong code took Amazon S3 servers down. The replies are apparently hosted there

[MoonCactus]

I had read it and it was well written
What a petty fuck. Deleting a comment he doesn't like.

Sorry but I never ever would have done this! Not my way! I got some hiccups with the G+ comments that were not showing at the end of the blogger post for a while (so I then added a link at the end of the post to point to these orphaned comments, namely that of Jaimie and Richard). But they came back a few hours later so I removed the link. I had no chance to see Nallath's comment though :/

I sincerely hope this is where Nallath posted his reply instead, https://ultimaker.com/en/community/3912 ... ply-173433
Otherwise his post probably is still "orphaned" in his G+ comments and I would gladly re-incorporate it without any hesitation :/

[LePaul]

If it was the fault of the bizarre Amazon/S3 outage, I apologize. Based on how it appeared/timing...it looked like you didn't appreciate his well crafted response.

[MoonCactus]

No biggie, sorry for Nallath. And I am glad it was a glitch, I really did not want to look like I removed something!

And while I should write less and make more... you just made me open an account here
(this forum reminds me of the old google group btw, I cannot help but have a look!)

[LePaul]

We sort of pride ourselves as being the high-level discussion area of 3D printing tech

I love my Ultimaker printers and their site. But the forum is extremely slow for me and just hard to navigate thru (even at work, sitting on a massive fiber optic connection)

So....with Anders' suggestion, I made this ....another place to chat about our favorite printers

[reibuehl]

High level? I would rather say high tech or high class

Some of the stuff discussed here is so detailed and down deep in the technology that you can't call it high level

[Anders Olsson]

Regarding the patent discussion, it is an interesting one.

I would say filing for a patent for the autoleveling is a natural step for Ultimaker. It is a rather clever solution which uses novel technology and certainly is of value (if they make it a bit more reliable).

I think the reasons why Ultimaker chooses to file for a patent at this particular time differs a bit from SanderVGs official "protecting the community"-story though
Here is my view on things:

1) For small businesses like mine, any large competitor could just steal my inventions even if I patented them, because I can't afford the lawyers to defend my patent anyway. Ultimaker on the other hand are now large enough that even companies like Stratasys should think twice before copying things that Ultimaker has a patent on, so a patent certainly can protect technology now days for Ultimaker.

2) For a relatively large and growing company like Ultimaker, relying on only a few products makes the company vulnerable and the natural thing to do is to get other sources of income to improve financial stability.
The Ultimaker 3 was obviously designed with this in mind, focusing on new (industrial) customers, with the addition of continuous sales of NFC tagged UM filament and print cores.
Collecting royalties from other companies using the bed leveling technique would be another way to get new sources of income, I would not be too surprised if we see this happening in the future.

3) In the event that Ultimaker needs funding or loans, owning a few patents for sure will make the investors/banks more happy than relying only on selling printers which basically anyone can copy since the drawings are public.

So Ultimakers strategy is not surprising at all to me, in fact i think they do what they should do.

That said though, I personally don't like patents since there is always a risk that another company puts an offer on Ultimaker that the owners can not say no to, and then locks down the patented technology Stratasys-style.